Paddy let's off steam

Paddy tells it how it is to Dermot Murnaghan on Sky News

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now here's a quote, "We haven't fought to save our union north of the border to see it Balkanised in Westminster', those are the words of the Deputy Prime Minister and leader of the Liberal Democrats, Nick Clegg, today and it gets to the heart perhaps of the row that is emerging from the fallout from the Scottish independence referendum. There are growing calls to match the promises given to Scotland for greater devolution with more control for English politicians and voters so are we about to see political power in the United Kingdom completely reformed? Joining me now is the former Lib Dem leader, Paddy Ashdown. Paddy, first of all I just wanted to ask you, how does this debate about increased powers make you feel?

PADDY ASHDOWN: Well to coin a phrase, Dermot, bloody angry. I mean look, reading Nick Clegg this morning in the Times, by the way the BBC didn't even bother to cover it this morning, I hope you guys did better - and you'll see why. Look, the ink is not even dry on the promises they made, the ballot boxes are not even closed and Mr Miliband and Mr Cameron are already running away from the promises they made. Mr Cameron didn't seem to realise that when he made that promise he may not be able to carry his MPs with him and is now amending it so that it is somehow tied to English parliaments and English votes - we'll come on to that in a minute. Mr Miliband by the way, Labour didn't even want to have devo max, they didn't want it, they didn't want it, they didn't want it and then at the very end in a panic they accepted it without accepting it's implications and now they are running away from it too. Look, I suggest these two old leaders go away into a quiet room, these two leaders of the old parties, go away into a quiet room this afternoon and play a game of join the dots because if they don't realise that there is something very close to a national citizens revolt against Westminster - it may be that the Scottish revolt, near revolution, may go away but I rather doubt it listening to Mr Salmond earlier on and his, in my view, entirely justifiable anger. Now join that dot with the other dot, Farage and UKIP running a campaign against Westminster and the Westminster elite and you've got to realise that this is a profoundly dangerous moment, a moment by the way that I've been warning was coming for ten years now as the gap between government and governed grew. To renege on a solemn promise like that will destroy Westminster's legitimacy and reputation in Scotland and will do the same in England too and the consequences of that are very great. Now here's the bottom line, if they didn't realise - Mr Cameron and Mr Miliband - what they were signing up to, bad luck. They've signed up to it, they now have to deliver to Scotland, there can be no question of linking that to England because all that will happen is that Labour will be opposed to that, Mr Cameron has been very clearly playing politics, making a proposition Labour couldn't accept and that slows up the Scottish promise. We must deliver in full, on time on the Scottish promise and then we can start thinking about something that I've believe in for a long time, my party has believed in for a hundred years, which is genuine devolution to England and to the regions of England and how we do that. I think there are steps we can take in the short term to move towards that but in the end the substantial devolution to England can only happen after a proper constitutional convention held the other side of the next general election.

DM: Okay, let's park how you do it, the English side of things, for a moment but Paddy Ashdown first of all on the promises to Scotland. As you say, a vow written and signed by the party leaders, if Scotland doesn't get what it was promised, justifiable anger you put it from Mr Salmond and indeed he suspects many of the no voters, but that can happen can it now without the extra powers or whatever powers they are for England, as Labour seem to be arguing. That yes, you need more consideration, you might need a convention, you need a lot of discussions about what powers England gets but let's deliver according to that timetable those powers for Scotland.

PADDY ASHDOWN: Well those two points can't be linked. Mr Cameron quite deliberately, to satisfy his back benchers and also to create a trap for Labour, played politics with his own promise. I mean that's pretty disgraceful anyway, to play politics with that promise is in my view extremely foolish and extremely damaging, to his reputation and to the reputation of Westminster. He must deliver on that, that promise to Scotland was made in something as close to blood as you get in politics, that must be delivered. Now there are sensible steps we can take now about solving the question of the English MPs voting, they are already established, they are in the McKay Commission, it's been done, it's been thought about, it requires no legislation, it could be implemented tomorrow. By the way, there are also sensible proposals that require no legislation that could be implemented tomorrow in the McKay Commission, in a commission similarly for Wales, so those two can be implemented next year and Labour are resisting that because they think it will do them damage is playing politics as well. It's there, it's done and if Mr Miliband didn't realise that, then bad luck, he's got to still deliver the promise. Having done that …

DM: Well just flesh that out, Paddy, I mean what do we get? We can get the English votes on English laws by English MPs, we can just get that quite easily now you say without further legislation?

PADDY ASHDOWN: Let me go back a bit, in order for Scotland to get to where it's got to - and I was the person who proposed this to Tony Blair way back in '97, it was a Liberal Democrat commitment to deliver devolution to Scotland that drove that process along with the commitment of John Smith previously, Mr Blair didn't believe in it. But to precede that we had a Scottish constitutional convention, we then had legislation in the House of Commons, we then had the establishment of a Scottish parliament, we then had nearly ten years of a Scottish parliament in existence before we moved to the same step. The idea that Britain could go through that, that England could go through that in a matter of two or three months is madness. So you cannot produce, unless you are to produce a complete dog's breakfast, an equivalent to Scotland in England with the same timetable. You cannot do it and if you try, it will be a mess. So what do you have to do? Well if we can't do that, we can do it the other side of the next general election in constitutional convention. Let's take what we've got, all three parties agreed to the McKay Commission, that considered these matters, they're there, they can be implemented without legislation as I understand, ditto by the way for Wales. That's what we can put into operation, the block on that it seems to me is Labour.

DM: So what do we get, do we get a situation, do we get it next year where English MPs vote on English matters where all the Scottish MPs, the Lib Dems, the one Conservative, the Labour MPs from Scotland and the SNP ones of course, they don't vote?

PADDY ASHDOWN: You get as far towards that as you can now sensibly move without going into a panic measure of constitutional reform which will end up, let me tell you, with a dogs breakfast. It took seven or eight years to develop this in Scotland, you can't do that. So that's what's there, that's what's on the table. By the way I was delighted to hear Kate Hoey earlier on today on your programme taking a line which I thought different from Mr Miliband's and she said pretty well exactly that, that that can be done and should be done and that Labour must not stand in the face of that. So here are the two things that have to happen, well three things would have to happen. One, these two old leaders must now say they will deliver, the leaders of the old parties, to Scotland in full and quickly. Secondly, they should agree to move towards in a sensible way the application of the provisions already in place from the McKay Commission that begins to resolve this problem and then thirdly, we should all commit to a proper constitutional convention. Now I don't want power devolved to England alone, I want to see it devolved to the communities of Britain, I want power to close to people, I want them to get involved in politics, not leaving it to the elite in Westminster. You can only move there though if you take that series of sensible incremental steps but step one, and the thing that Mr Miliband and Mr Cameron don't seem to understand, is to renege on the solemn promise that they gave to the Scottish people and playing politics within hours of that promise being made, will not only damage the standing of Westminster in Scotland but it will damage it in the whole country as well so I hope they stop and I hope they stop soon and put the interests of the integrity and respect for Westminster and the promises they made first and not petty party politics.

DM: And what do you think would happen north of the border if that promise is reneged on? You listened to the interview I had earlier this morning with Alex Salmond and he said he felt that even some of those no voters had been gulled, had had the wool pulled over their eyes, tricked was another word he used and he said there were other routes to independence beyond a referendum, I don't know what - declare a unilateral declaration of independence or something like that.

PADDY ASHDOWN: I don't know, I don't know what he has in mind but I have to say I think his anger was entirely justified. I mean Alex is a formidable politician, you give him an issue like this and he'll hit boundaries with it, using a cricket analogy that wouldn't be understood in Scotland and I don't understand it much either to be honest, but whatever the phrase is anyway he is entirely justified and no voters, it's not too late to go back on this stupidity of the last 48 hours, no voters will feel that way too. I think we need to look at this on a broader context, Dermot and I come back to something I have been saying for eight years - the gap between government and governed in this country, between politics and people has been growing dangerously wide and if you do not put this right then you are beginning to see what I think is a people's revolt in Scotland and in England against Westminster and it could lead to a crisis of democracy in due course unless it is addressed and that process is helped not a tiny bit by the fact that the two leaders of the old parties, Messrs Cameron and Miliband, even before the ink was dry on the solemn promises they made in Scotland are now reneging on them for political advantage in Britain. This is dangerous stuff.

DM: How do the Liberal Democrats play in all this? You have got a Deputy Prime Minister of course there, how can he act the honest broker? How does he make the other two stick to their promises?

PADDY ASHDOWN: Well he has influence in government and I'm sure he'll use it to that effect. We've got this constitutional committee that is now going to be established, I think that's a very important committee and I hope that we play, we will play a major role in that. I think there is a case for making that committee in the open, in public. It's really important that we get the British public involved in this and Nick has made a proposal in his article today that a constitutional convention, at the centre of it should be a citizen's jury. We have got to start taking this issue out of the hands of the elite in Westminster who have shown for far too long they are incapable of doing, far too much vested interest to hang on to the power structures they've got and we've got to get the people, the citizens of this country in involved. Now if the Liberal Democrats can lead that process as well as forcing the other two to act as honest brokers they'll be doing a really important job. Just remember, we've been committed to this policy for 110 years, we've thought it through, we've got the ideas, we know what needs to be done, we led the process in Scotland - I hope we'll do the same in England too.

DM: Okay, Paddy Ashdown, always great to talk to you, thank you very much indeed. The former Liberal Democrat leader there.

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